Proposal: XP system change

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Proposal: XP system change

Postby Dime Store Magic » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:38 am

The discussion before an actual proposal:

The end of the 1st quad of 2018 has been a long time coming. It's June 26th and I think the last of the groups XP has just been tallied, because, life. EP for the quad still must be posted to the ledgers Each quad, there is significant pleading to get others to do the XP tabulation, usually for a sizable EP bribe. Finding AGMs that stick around is hard. Do we need to make it so difficult on ourselves?

With the introduction of the ROLL20 games, a new standard for awarding XP has been established for Palladium characters. In the Roll20 Rifts game it's a flat 5 XP per level up to level 10, and 10 XP per level from from 11 to 15.

As an active player of the HU2 game, I would say less progress is made in 5 months there than in PBP, so if a player can go from level 3 to level 5 just by showing up for 12 months (11 XP to 23 XP), I don't see a problem applying a similar system to PBP.

So the question becomes; how do we adapt this to PBP? I think Savage Rifts has shown us the way. Savage Rifts uses the following system of awarding XP:

Experience Awards. Each quarter, the GM determines whether everyone earned 1 to 3 Experience Points. Total experience points are awarded to players at the end of each quarter.
The group accomplished little, 1 Point.
The group had more successes than failures, 2 Points.
The group succeeded greatly, and their adventure had a significant impact on the overall story, 3 points.
This means players should earn 1-3 experience points per quarter, in addition to any bonuses listed below.

Player Reward System. At the end of each quarter we also calculate post rates to ensure players are keeping up with the site minimum. This is a simple calculation that takes the number of player posts in the quad divided by 10 weeks (yes we know quarters usually have 12 weeks. This gives you a little wiggle room). There’s even a little extra juice for you if you exceed the minimum.
0.99 or lower = Failure! Up your game.
1.0 post rate = Success! You met the target number.
1.01-1.49 post rate = Success with a raise! Receive 1 EP + 1 XP
1.5 - 1.99 post rate = Success with two raises! Receive 2 EP + 2 XP
2.00+ post rate = Holy crap! Receive 3 EP +2 XP and a bonus benny for the quarter.


From what I've seen on the Savage Worlds side (as a player there as well), the active engagement of the player base means that per quarter, most are getting about 5 XP. So an engaged EU player posting more than the minimum (and keeping to quadrimesters) could most likely go from level 3 (11 XP) to level 6 (26 XP) in one year. They'd get to level 9 (41 XP) by the end of year 2, and be level 15 in about 6 years.

For the average player earning only 3 XP per quad: Level 5 by the end of year 1, level 6, by the end of year 2, and take about 9 years to get to level 15.

Now I do have a caveat: I find the stories being told between the GM and the players on EU are much easier to follow than Savage Worlds. Consistent formatting and requirements (action, dialogue, etc) go a long way. I'd penalize a player a point if the posts were difficult to read even if they were posting actively.

What do people think?
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Augur » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:33 pm

I rather like it, though I'd definitely offer a tweak in XP scaling like we've done recently in Roll20
It IS revolutionary though, so this would definitely require massive GM buy-in
positive side: XP would be MASSIVELY easier to do, also XP would be based on what a group accomplished (encouraging teamwork) and their post rate (engagement)
downside: it's revolutionary (change is hard for some people, even change that actually makes everything easier in the long run)
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby CS High Command » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 pm

As a GM on the Savage side, I am feel far less ... apprehension on doing XP there. And I can't say I'd be unhappy to see this. I really would not be unhappy.

However, I must mention the following:
    It works on Savage Side because that IS the way XP is done. 5 XP per level (advance). Period. There are twenty levels (advances) and it is no harder to gain levels at Novice 2 (Our level 3 to use the EU equivalent starting level) than it is at Legendary 4 (the 20th rank). Really, except for a ramping up of bad guys, there's not a whole ton of difference at various "levels." It works for Savage Worlds.

    There is no such parity between Palladium classes, let alone between palladium levels. In fact, in Palladium's experience scheme, it is assumed that the thing holding players back from the truly obscene stuff IS how hard it is to level at higher levels than say 8. Further, excepting magic users, psionic users, and a few others, there is very LITTLE difference once you get to about level 8 or so. Skills go up, who cares, move on. Mages and Psychics get access to better and better powers, but so do their adversaries.

    That said, there is no uniformity under level 8. Even the most front loaded classes tend to have some serious things happening in levels 3 to 8. I mean a lot.

    It also de-emphasizes the post conformity. It also disincentivizes skill monkeys (there's no explicit bonus for using skills creatively).

It would also require GMs to award a set amount for mission/Quad XP; Because that is how XP works under this system.

Award 2-3 XP for a mission/quad done (or well done)
Award 1-2 XP per interlude (long form story that basically allows the player to narrate some action, within reason - "tell a story that illustrates you saving someone from a fall and work it back into the conversation started by the NPC.")
Miscellaneous XP; maybe - 1 XP for getting 90% of your posts formatted well throughout the quad.
Others as needed.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Virtus » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:11 pm

Replicating some points above;

I do think differences between class types is still worthwhile. Perhaps rather than by class it's by type. Men at Arms, Scholars and Adventurers, etc...

Something akin to a dragon will develop more slowly than say a vagabond. That concept plays out well I think. A high level Cyber-Knight is a more significant accomplishment than an operator of the same level.

But I'm not opposed to the general concept. However, would a GM still be able to add an XP bonus for particularly clever ideas or excellent role play? Even at its lowest amount of 1xp it might seem like a steep award.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby CS High Command » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:51 pm

I'm actually a fan of giving out in game bonuses (+1 to your next attack, +4 to your next initiative check, +5% to a skill check, etc.)

But I generally work that into my XP for the quarter on the Savage Side - 3 if they did really well, 2 if they did what I expected. I'll also sometimes toss one more on the Interlude XP if they were amazing as well. You kinda have to get into the habit of awarding them through other means.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Dime Store Magic » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:32 pm

In regards to the XP chart for classes, some sampling of the XP charts:

XP required @ Levels: 5, 10, and 15
CS Grunt: 17K, 125K, 375K

Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter: 18K, 96K, 335K

Phase Adept (Promethian): 21K, 120K, 500K

Cyber-Knight: 17K, 96K, 342K

Rogue Scientist: 16K, 95K, 329k

Chiang-Ku Dragon: 19K, 169K, 600K

Dragon: 20K, 170K, 600K

The charts themselves appear to be all over the place and for most "mortal" races, it makes no real difference if they have magic/psionics, a ley line walker needs less XP than a CS Grunt and is on par with a Rogue Scientist. Reduced to the 5 XP/level scale, the differences are negligible - I wouldn't worry about it. For those like Dragons or other "High Powered Character Classes", I would recommend that they have at most 2 or 3 additional XP required per level, but I think +1 is fine, so 6 XP from levels 1 to 10, and 11 XP from levels 11 to 15.

In regards to rewarding a specific player for his/her creativity and ingenuity: Sure you can, and +1 XP is meaningful. Do you reward for every clever action, no. But if one player is caring the day every single time, then I'd almost say that the GM should examine the story being told, were there opportunities for more than one player to take the lead and make the difference between success and failure?
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Dark Lord » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:34 am

I'm all for simplifying things, and lord knows Palladium abounds with opportunities to do so. But I'm opposed to any system that rewards post quantity but not quality- nobody's using the EP award system for post quality that we set up, for example, and my concern is that we would streamline things too much. Also, while I sympathize with the tedious nature of awarding XP, I also think any revision of the XP rules should be done with an eye towards making things easier for the AGM without making more work for the GM.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Dime Store Magic » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:59 am

Dark Lord wrote:I'm all for simplifying things, and lord knows Palladium abounds with opportunities to do so. But I'm opposed to any system that rewards post quantity but not quality- nobody's using the EP award system for post quality that we set up, for example, and my concern is that we would streamline things too much. Also, while I sympathize with the tedious nature of awarding XP, I also think any revision of the XP rules should be done with an eye towards making things easier for the AGM without making more work for the GM.


Additional posts generate some amount of XP already; but I am concerned about post quality as well. It is why I suggested that if post requirement are consistently not met, that a point should be deducted.

How about something like this:

The group accomplished little, 1 Point.
The group had more successes than failures, 2 Points.
The group succeeded greatly, and their adventure had a significant impact on the overall story, 3 points.

Plus if:

The individual had little impact on the story, 1 Point.
The individual had some impact on the story, 2 Points.
The individual's actions had a significant impact on the overall story, 3 points.

This means players should earn 2-6 experience points per quad.

As far as making the duties of the AGM easier, I am in a sense making it possible to eliminate the AGM role since for many groups it has come down to just tabulating XP.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby CS High Command » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:18 am

That is not an unfair assessment DL. Indeed it should place an onus on the AGM to only give post count those posts that "count." No one liners, must include all the basics, etc. In fact this would require significant buy in from the community to maintain the. Also, I'd also suggest that XP bonus for getting it right also apply as a negative if your percentage of posts that "count" falls below a certain number (maybe 30%).

Here are the full details of how we do XP on the Savage Side.
Post Rate & XP Bonus Calculator

In the interests of consistency across the site it pays for us to calculate bonuses the same way. This spreadsheet attempts to provide that consistency. It is a first draft and certainly up for discussion, however, it appears to tick all of the boxes for now. So, have a look and save a copy for your group.

Savage Rifts Post Rate Calculator

Some Notes

Weeks: Quarters have 12-13 weeks, using the number 10 gives some leeway for absences, holidays, etc. There is no adjustment for long GM absence or groups/players starting mid-way through a quarter. In these cases notify admin and recommend a summary EP award if warranted.

Posts: In this section enter the total number of qualified posts by each player during the period. In the example above this is broken down by adventure thread, but it will work as long as the total number of posts is listed (e.g. you could go by week, month, or just input a total. If more rows are needed simply add them above the "Post Rate" line).

Group Experience Award: This is the amount awarded by the GM for the quarter per our House Rules (note DSM included them above)

Interludes: This represents 1-2 bonus XP for each Interlude done during the quarter (don't start getting crazy with this or I'll cap it).

BB Code: This is a summary report automatically parsed into BB Code, you can post this into your group XP thread and in the end of quarter EP thread. This report is the only thing I will use to update ledgers with end of quarter EP.

Sample wrote:1st SET

Fell - 6 XP | 2.9 PPW | 3 EP
Gale - 6 XP | 2.2 PPW | 3 EP
Cory - 6 XP | 3.1 PPW | 3 EP
Timothy - 6 XP | 1.7 PPW | 2 EP
Sayeen - 6 XP | 3.3 PPW | 3 EP
Qooat - 5 XP | 1.3 PPW | 1 EP
Sinder - 5 XP | 1.7 PPW | 2 EP
Merlaggon - 6 XP | 2.7 PPW | 3 EP

Group Post Rate (Weekly): 2.36
GM Post Rate (Weekly): 1.30


And...discuss.

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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Virtus » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:24 pm

Dime Store Magic wrote:In regards to the XP chart for classes, some sampling of the XP charts:

XP required @ Levels: 5, 10, and 15
CS Grunt: 17K, 125K, 375K

Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter: 18K, 96K, 335K

Phase Adept (Promethian): 21K, 120K, 500K

Cyber-Knight: 17K, 96K, 342K

Rogue Scientist: 16K, 95K, 329k

Chiang-Ku Dragon: 19K, 169K, 600K

Dragon: 20K, 170K, 600K


Lets throw a couple other core classes in there:

City Rat: 14k, 71k, 287k

Merc Soldier: 15k, 74k, 290k

At a typical XP allotment of somewhere in the 5k range, a difference of even 10k becomes significant, representing half a year at best. As a percentage it doesn't look like a lot, but in game it certainly does make a difference.

With regards to using in game bonuses as rewards, I'm not sure I would award a bonus to the next attack because I found an intercharacter exchange funny or well written. What would an insightful flashback award? I still think the scale is too tight and that as proposed there isn't enough of a link between excellent role play and progression. Often I award a bonus 100-500xp on a post that is fun or epic. It's not a lot for a particular quad but often those players are consistent in that type of posting. Over time it becomes significant but is also not blatant. As a GM I don't necessarily want people to compare posts against one another and prefer my bonuses to be a little more anonymous, allowing them to focus more on story rather than scoring more bonus points.

Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment, but I feel like it just isn't gradual enough. Admittedly I prefer sandbox systems so this type of progression is not something I am fond of in general.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Dime Store Magic » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:37 pm

The City Rat is a good example.

I think there are people who achieve 5000 XP per quad, but it's not that common. 13 characters out of 99 achieved that minimum this last quad. So it is doable. In the chart below I've compared that with a character earning 5 XP under the proposed system. The Quad columns indicate how many quads would be necessary to achieve that level if starting at level 1.

City Rat XP.PNG


Palladium is faster up to level 6, but slows down dramatically from level 8 on. It would take the engaged player almost 12 years of knocking it out of the park quad after quad to get to level 15 in our current method, it's still almost 7 years using the proposed method. Both methods get to the sweet spot of level 7 in just over 2 years. For some players, the level up is just as important as the story. They want to see their characters grow in power and ability. If they saw that leveling up after a certain point is just an activity of frustration, they may stop participating as much. Keeping that player interested and active is what we fundamentally want. (Barring the 1 liner posts). I submit that an interested, engaged player is a better writer (or will become a better writer because they are willing to be coached).

Also note, I've been focused on best case scenarios for a player rather than worst case. The 86 characters this quad who had less than 5000 XP were more around 2000 XP (just eyeballing here no real math). It's going to take them much longer in either chart to hit level 15.

We have the EP and F&G systems that is already mutating characters far from how Palladium envisioned them. So letting a character level up faster may eliminate the need to spend EP for some. For those that can't put in the extra effort, but our goal of a post a week, will still steady progress.

This second chart is modifying the proposed method to take the same amount of time as Palladium, just to see what it would look like:

City Rat XP 2 normalized.PNG
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Virtus » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:24 pm

Sorry, I should have clarified that my point was focused more on my contention on different types leveling at different progressions than the proposed XP vs current XP progression.

My comment on scale is about being able to, as a GM, use my discretion in the reward rather than purely a mechanic. My desires in regards to XP could be best summed up as follows:

Varying XP level requirements by class or type that reflect class strength
My ability as a GM to award XP bonuses for RP that I personally deem worthy of additional reward
Maintain XP peaks at adventure climax

As I mentioned, class based systems aren't my favorite in the first place so I'm not bent on this at all one way or the other. That said, I wasn't a fan of the transition to min-maxing that occurred with 2nd to 3rd in DnD. I personally don't care for that blend of class systems and formulaic progression. Admittedly some people do love that style of gaming. However it always seems that story takes a hit when the players can say "well, I did X so I know I should get y" where both X and Y are just numbers. And while some players may thrive on min-maxing, after experiencing the rapid level progression that came in with 3rd DnD, it did nothing to improve character retention. But that was DnD and this is Rifts which are two different animals.

This isn't a hill I'd die on one way or the other. Just my opinion. Maybe we should increase the potential speed for progression. Perhaps the benefit of easy XP outweighs the GM award system.

What if the scale was expanded? So instead of a flat 5 per level, it was a 50 per level. Post based rewards would also be multiplied by 10. Then you would have enough room that if a GM favored a post, they could give a bonus XP for that post. It's not dramatic, but if they had 5 excellent posts in a quad, it would be a more significant bump. Over the course of a year it could be quite a lot. Also, it still leaves room for incentives.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Dime Store Magic » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:34 pm

Virtus wrote:Sorry, I should have clarified that my point was focused more on my contention on different types leveling at different progressions than the proposed XP vs current XP progression.

My comment on scale is about being able to, as a GM, use my discretion in the reward rather than purely a mechanic. My desires in regards to XP could be best summed up as follows:

Varying XP level requirements by class or type that reflect class strength
My ability as a GM to award XP bonuses for RP that I personally deem worthy of additional reward
Maintain XP peaks at adventure climax


How Palladium has decided the XP requirements are random; trying to redo them a similar way with a new scale doesn't solve that problem, and actually ranking each type of character beyond more than a few categories is more work than its worth. The time scale to achieve a level with our quad XP award method flattens out the 'curve' significantly already.

I think the new system fulfills your second requirement - more on that below

Your ability to maintain XP peaks at an adventure climax are also strongly affected by our current system - see below as well.

I counter that with our current system where the AGMs tally XP (and in most cases a person who has not been following the unfolding story closely), the XP awarded is purely mechanical (post requirements, skill use, and combat). With the proposed system, the GM can easily remember the accomplishments of the previous 4 months and quickly assess how the group did. The scale to award can definitely change, but I'd caution that as soon as it moves beyond a scale where each number has a definition it becomes essentially the old system and requires more than minimal book keeping.

What I mean:

1 - Partial met expectation
2 - Meet expectation
3 - Exceeded expectation

5 - Partial met expectation
10 - Meet expectation
15 - Exceeded expectation

In the first scale there is no ambiguity, it's one of the three choices. In the second scale, what combination of events would give rise to an 8 or a 13? I bet in most cases we'd award 5, 10, or 15 because it's simpler, at which point it might as well be 1, 2, or 3. Also, unless we decide to require it, there's no top end in XP awarded per quad. You thought someone was hilarious in five of their posts give them an extra XP, or two, or five.

Since we are both in H4H, let's use our data as an example:

Ronith - 5175xp | 1.38 PPW | 162.50xp | RECOMMENDED - 1 EP PER PLAYER REWARD SYSTEM
Beltin - 4050xp | 1.15 PPW | 170.00xp | [LEVEL UP] | RECOMMENDED - 1 EP PER PLAYER REWARD SYSTEM
Barracuda - 4125xp | 1.08 PPW | 162.50xp | RECOMMENDED - 1 EP PER PLAYER REWARD SYSTEM
Grant - 8050xp | 1.46 PPW | 221.05xp | [LEVEL UP] | RECOMMENDED - 1 EP PER PLAYER REWARD SYSTEM
Ashlynn - 8525xp | 1.92 PPW | 197.00xp | RECOMMENDED - 2 EP PER PLAYER REWARD SYSTEM
Weiss - 7950xp | 1.77 PPW | 117.39xp | [LEVEL UP] | RECOMMENDED - 2 EP PER PLAYER REWARD SYSTEM


Now, this last quad, we got useful data out of Whyne, made it to Dweomer, found Horne (and Bogg). We learned about the Broken Door, and what Professor MacGrath is up to. I'd say we had exceeded expectations so 3 XP.

6 XP: Ronith made command decisions, got us into see Horne and negotiated - he exceeded expectations/3 XP
5 XP: Beltin used his powers to locate Bogg and find Horne's home. He also had some ideas on how to heal the Professor. - met expectations/2 XP
5 XP: Grant used his magic alot and made some deductions - met expectations/2 XP
5 XP: Ashlynn - eye balled a lot of people - met expectations/2 XP
5 XP: Barracuda - kept an eye on Whyne, worked with Ashlynn and Weiss to keep the team secure - met expectations/2 XP
5 XP: Weiss - kept an eye on Whyne, worked with Ashlynn and Weiss to keep the team secure - met expectations/2 XP

Now Grant, Ashlynn, and Weiss had a lot XP last quad, so let's say there was at least 1 post you really like from each, so you awarded +1 XP to the 3 of them so they'd have 6 XP the same as Sir Ronith. Now to DL's argument about not equating XP to post rate, it's clear that at least some of our XP last quad was from posting more than required :wink: .

I evaluated last quad as player, you as a GM might have a different take, but while the reasons may not be the same, I bet the results will be close.

I've been focused on how much time it takes to level in what I've written here so far in what I've proposed because much of the XP that is actually awarded is not from actual role playing it's from formatting and posting quickly. With what I've proposed, all of that potentially goes away, it really is based on how well you, as the GM, think the group and each player has done - that isn't an easy assessment for an AGM to make unless the GM shares the goals/expectations he/she has for the quad at the beginning of each quad.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Augur » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:38 pm

It should be noted that there are two fundamental approaches to XP, in general, that are not being considered in the grand scheme of things: individually and collectively.

At present, and in the present discussion, the focus is entirely on awarding XP individually.

I'd like for everyone to consider, since we're thinking outside the box here, of the alternative as well.

What if awarding XP were a really simple process for the GM like so:

Each quarter, the GM determines whether the group earned 1 to 3 Experience Points.
The group accomplished little, each character in the group receives 1 XP.
The group had more successes than failures, each character in the group receives 2 XP.
The group succeeded greatly, and their adventure had a significant impact on the overall story, each character in the group receives 3 XP.

If the group post rate is below standards, dock 1 XP at the end of each quad.
If the group post rate is above standards, reward such in a graded fashion.
(Obviously, shitty posts would need to be excluded and severely frowned upon.)
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Cairo » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:07 am

I like the individual focus.
I have groups where I post 3x as often as other people, consistently engage and seek to move things forward.

Even if I cannot (despite hand wringing, nagging, and gnashing of teeth) get the slowposters to get onboard, individual XP means that I have Something to show for the additional effort put in.

The proposal offered for "Group" XP largely eliminates that incentive. It is the participation-trophy writ large and rewards free-riders.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby CS High Command » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:46 am

I will say for my Savage Rifts game I award the base XP to the group (though I will dock someone if they didn't participate as much as others). Interludes are where individuals shine in terms of XP.

But I will say that the reward for posting more often is EP.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Augur » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:09 am

Yeah, there's always a trade-off, mates.

And there's good and easy ways (Pat alluded to some) to combat the free rider problem.

And, as Pat also pointed out, a great post rate is also rewarded by EP
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Virtus » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:33 am

So, using H4H for example. In my stories thus far, when I create an adventure I bullet point clues. Any character who discovers those clues gains bonus XP. For example, remembering to bring out the "map" Watcher created earned 100xp. Finding Bogg is 500xp, being a significant adventure milestone, though by now it seems less important. If the map had been used earlier they may have followed it from the gate, completely skipping Horne's residence.

I suppose I look at it as rewards for finding the story I had wrote as often whole chunks are skipped for one reason or another (naturally common in all RPGs).

I definitely like the second, larger scale better.

In those cases how many times can I parcel out XP bonuses? If I have 10 potential points of discovery, would anyone freak out if suddenly Ronith was awarded 8xp, since 1XP is the smallest amount that can be parceled out? On the larger scale, if he exceeded expectations and scored discovery points 20xp would be less significant of a bonus proportionally. I almost never score on even numbers and frequently take away a few or add a few depending on various factors. Perfect 10s are imaginary to me so I score as a portion of that. Doesn't mean that can't change, just that it's not how I normally operate.

I also tend to award 25 bonus XP if a post is in reply to another character. Insignificant but over time it adds up surely. But I tend to be stingy as a GM so I view my ability to dole out bonus XP highly.

The thought of collective rewards I'm not that interested in, UNLESS it becomes a cumulative score. So the group earns a set amount that then combines with individual scores.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby CS High Command » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:32 am

Problem: XP takes too long to calculate via the current method
Complication: Scaling XP like that which is used in the Roll20 game creates issues of scaling XP per the normal system. Transferring to that mid stream creates difficulties.
Complication: Gms like being able to hand out XP bonuses to characters.
Complication: We don't want folks to level too slowly or too quickly

Suggestion: Instead of these arbitrarily small numbers, we use larger ones in keeping with existing XP charts, but we keep to the same basic scale. To that end, I'll use the XP rules we have on SR.com and expand them. Note this keeps the concept of what DSM is suggesting, while taking into the very valid points Virtus is making (which I also agree with).

Post Rate --- EP --- XP (0's added for alignment purposes)
    0.99 --- 0 --- 0
    1.01 --- 1 --- 500
    1.51 --- 2 --- 750
    2.01 --- 3 --- 1000
Group XP
    1000 XP - Partial met expectation
    1500 XP - Meet expectation
    2000 XP - Exceeded expectation
Interlude XP (I'm adding this because it is REALLY a good tool for those weeks as a GM when you just want to let your players off the chain and give them some rope to hang themselves).
Interludes are short stories written by the players that are assigned by the GM to tell a story. It might be a mission recap (a debriefing, for example) or a travel story of something that has happened in the past that reminds the character of something happening now, or a story told by the character of something that may or may not have happened. Whatever the subject, it is a two to five paragraph story (maximum) that is awarded XP based on the following scale:

    Met the requirements of the interlude instructions: 100
    Stayed within length requirements: 100
    Well told and well written story: 100
    Advanced the narrative or revealed something about the character or the world: 100-200 (this allows GMs some room)
So an interlude is an easy 500 XP, done well.

Barring any bonus XP and assuming two interludes a quad, that's 3000 XP a quad for keeping up with the story, advancing it, participating, and doing what you should as a player. And we can change these numbers! I'm just tossing up some examples. The GM/AGM DOES have to be careful not to count substandard posts, but thankfully that is actually easier than it sounds. Only the GM can rate mission success, but that is simply a conversation between the GM and the AGM.
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Re: Let's discuss changing how XP is awarded!

Postby Tiree » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:35 am

CSHC - is it really an issue that it takes too long? Or is it bad time management or inconsistent XP practices.

I personally don't see a problem with the current XP system, both as an AGM and a Player. It takes a day or two to tally up a group full of XP. But some folks do it on a weekly basis. But life does take a toll on people and sometimes it hits right around the quad (like it did for me just recently). I think the hardest part is on the GM's who are doing both jobs - this proposed semi flat system makes it easier for them.

I would make a suggestion: Before making a 'Site Wide' change on this: Target a single dimension, run it for a while.

Now that said, I have played in several leveled based games where we did a flat 1,000xp per game. You received 1000 if you were there the whole night. 500 if you had to leave halfway through. It didn't matter on how much you contributed, you put your time to being there. This was tabletop, so if you didn't shine it was okay - you were hanging out with friends and laughing. It was easy to figure out, it was also a d20 game so XP charts were the same across all the players.
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby Augur » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:59 am

Some facts about the current system:
    1. It takes too long (exacerbated by AGM time management issues & IRL pop-ups)
    2. It's highly subjective and complex
    3. It is individually based
    4. Its rewards system skews towards good alignments
    5. Different classes level at different rates

Problems that need to be addressed (in priority order):
    1. Difficulty/time consumption of the task of awarding XP
    2. Added complexity or a new system which is not drastically simpler is not preferable
      Read: If someone has to use a spreadsheet, it's already too complex.
      3. The class-based XP tables add another layer of generally undesired complexity, though for an arguably good reason

Overview of what we collectively want:
    Simplicity
    Individually based rewards for meritorious roleplaying

EP already rewards players and GMs for their post rates. So let us entirely ignore post rate as a factor in determining XP.

With all that said, I'd like to see some official proposals. Nicely formatted for ease of reading, etc.


Deadline for proposal submission: August 1st.

On August 1st, I'll assemble the proposals, put them up to a poll, include the poll option of maintaining the status quo, and put it up for site-wide voting.

POST YOUR PROPOSALS TO THIS THREAD.

Continue discussion if desired here in this thread.
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby SNAFU » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:19 pm

With the numbers being suggested, it seems like an economy to buy XP with EP should be easy to set values for and therefore a possibility in the new system.

Might make it easier to swallow if some frequent posters can still turn the participation rewards into PC advancement.
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby Maniacal Laugh » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:26 am

This is truly revolutionary and I am thrilled by the idea. I hate doing xp on EU, though it seems like I might take less time to compile it than most. I have a very mechanical set of requirements for each post and it’s more like checking boxes and then deciding on an arbitrary bonus, it goes fast but is maybe less personalized per player post. Truly awesome posts are still rewarded, lameass ones get little. Skill monkeys (which to me includes magic, psi, powers and special abilities) get a set amount per appropriate skill use. This adds up fast.

Savage xp works because characters don’t have nearly the array of skills and powers to increase. Spending xp the one (and only one) advance per level is fun. The level is less important. Palladium advancement is level based completely, and the fun is watching the xp pile up approaching the next level where everything advances and you may or may not have any choices.

The xp in the palladium worlds should maintain the scale and granularity of the current system. It seems tied strongly to the character advancement scheme. It seriously needs simplification though. If it could be reduced to post count + bonuses and if it no longer involved post by post reporting, I might swoon. I mean RC, 69 posts last quad? Wtf!

I’m excited at this idea to no end.
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby Augur » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:16 pm

Yeah, the post-by-post reporting is a huge time-suck and de-motivator.
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby Brute » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:37 am

I'm not opposed to revamping how XP is calculated but I can't vote on a proposal that doesn't include an xp-per-level scale.
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby Augur » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:57 pm

Brute wrote:I'm not opposed to revamping how XP is calculated but I can't vote on a proposal that doesn't include an xp-per-level scale.

Agreed. That is definitely a prerequisite as it's the base metric upon which experience levels are established.
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby CS High Command » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Link to my proposal

So I kinda like the second proposal of DSM's - a lot actually. But one thing that bugs me is the whole idea of simply rewriting the XP system entirely. I put all of the XP numbers in RUE on a sheet, tracked the change per level across all the charts (takes less time than you might imagine) and then averaged it. Came up with some pretty obvious observations on how Palladium slows things down - A LOT as you get higher in level. I ignored 1-2 entirely. they are anomalies that will get pulled up quickly with this system. So from level 3 to 6, you need, on average, about 7,000 XP to level. Some are more, others less, but that's about the average. At levels 7 through 10, you need around 21,000 (3 times as much) and by 11 and on, you need around 56,000 to level (8 times as much); I rounded these numbers for simplicity, but as representative averages they get close. So having those three numbers and setting a goal to level once, maybe twice a year, we can pretty easily scale up Pete's single digit system to one that will interface with the current XP system and allow a lot of flexibility - include fiat awards.

edit: Put in suggested targets for XP per quad and a warning about going over that too much.

Average of all RUE Experience Tables
1 - 0000-2,130
2 - 2,131-4,190
3 - 4,191-8,400
4 - 8,401-16,790
5 - 16,791-24,600
6 - 24,601-35,250
7 - 35,251-50,150
8 - 50,151-69,300
9 - 69,301-94,730
10 - 94,731-130,670
11 - 130,671-178,330
12 - 178,331-228,530
13 - 228,531-281,240
14 - 281,241-341,350
15 - 341,351-406,690
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Re: Proposal: XP system change

Postby CS High Command » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:54 pm

I would like to note that I don't particularly see a point in putting in a limit to XP as one has never existed to date. That said I do recognize that it would be easy to abuse with this, but I tend to trust our GMs with this, and we can as a group of GMs do some sanity checking if we feel some targets are too high.
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