Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion

Postby Wi-Fi » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:46 pm

Intangibility
This is another power that requires concentration - which would make use of Psionic or other mental powers untenable.
Solution: my two cents: Agree with ya on active powers that need concentration, brute. I would allow psionic abilities that do not need focus such as Auto-mind block.


Beastmaster
The save is already very high (17) - making it all but automatic already. Removing the saving throw can lead to potential for abuse (i.e., controlling a mage's familiar).
Certain Highly intelligent, magical and/or summoned beasts as well could be abused. Pretty sure there is an intelligent regular animal that is sentient as well.
Solution: Lower save to that of a regular human and an add bonuses for pe/ME if they apply. Charming something like a mammoth should not be easy as charming a squirrel.
Last edited by Wi-Fi on Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Wi-Fi's character sheet
OOC Comments
Bonuses in green apply only when force aura is active.
PPE: 15
ISP: 94/140
HP: 30 (34 with aura)
SDC: 47 (260)
Aura: 240/260 (Aura also gives superhuman strength)
Swarm status: 5 (all healthy)
Stubby/Rover/Sparky/Nameless #1/Nameless #2
SDC: 50/50/50/50/50
TRS-13
SDC: 50
AR: 6

CAF Elite Corps Load-Bearing Chest Rig (Patron Item)
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[size=85]Features:
• 12 attachment points
• Integrated IRMSS: 20,000 credits to recharge (R:UE, p.263)
Attachment points can be utilized to carry 1 each of the following item types: sidearm, magazine, E-clip, grenade, canteen, food ration pack, minor items or individual tools.

• Attachment: Clip (Rocksalt)
• Attachment: Clip (Rocksalt)
• Attachment: Clip (Armor Piercing)
• Attachment: Clip (Armor Piercing)
• Attachment: Clip (Shok Lock Cartridges)
• Attachment: Clip (Shok Lock Cartridges)
• Attachment: Clip (Multi-ball -Low Lethality)
• Attachment: Clip (Multi-ball -Low Lethality)
• Attachment: Flash Pack
• Attachment: Flash Pack
• Attachment: Voice recorder Pack
• Attachment: Voice recorder Pack

Shock Gloves:
• Range: Melee
• Damage: None. This gloves discharge an energy charge that short circuits the nervous system. Victims are dazed, -10 to strike, parry and dodge for 2d4 melee rounds.
A successful saving throw means the person has successfully fought off the effect and is unimpaired. Roll to save against each strike. Saving throw versus toxins.
• Rate of Fire: Single shots only, five shots total per melee
• Payload: 10/10 shots per charge (no clip)[/size]
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion

Postby John Altfeld » Sun May 13, 2018 7:50 pm

PU2 Complete Powers

Directed Force
Problem: Relatively minor clarification issue - most of the subpowers state the SN PS level that Directed Force applies, but it's missing for Pushing/Ramming People.
Solution: This effect is SN PS 30 as per the Holding subpowers.

Super Power Punch
Problem: This power, as written, is a Minor power. All it does is let you blow your entire melee attack load for a round on a single action, making it more likely you'll do NO damage (easier to miss on a single roll than on 8 rolls), and tanking your defensive ability.
Solution: EITHER Make this a Minor power, OR Super Power Punch gains +2 to Strike and ignore AR of the target.

Other Items

Currently Unmarked Attacks that Should Affect Intangible Characters at Half Damage
Energy, Sound, Shadow


Typo Issues in EU Power Fixes
Whirlpool wasn’t meant to have an unlimited duration under Control Water, it was supposed to be Water Walk with unlimited duration, unlimited whirlpool is crazy overpowered.
Last edited by John Altfeld on Fri May 25, 2018 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Definitely Not a God. Yet.
P.P.E.: 16/16
H.P./M.D.C.: 90/90
Pebble M.D.C.: 300/300
Growth M.D.C.: +15/+150/+525/+1,290/15/150/510/1,290

Important Combat Stats
Number of Attacks: 9
Initiative Bonus: +12
Strike Bonus: +8 (+8/+8/+10/+10)
Parry Bonus: +12(+12/+12/+14/+14) +2 with sword/staff
Dodge Bonus: +17 (+17/+17/+13/+13)
Auto-Dodge Bonus: +5 (+5/+5/+1/+1)
Bonus to Disarm: +3
Supernatural Strength Punch Damage: 3d6(5d6)+12/5d6(6d6)+12/1d6x10+22(+32)/1d6x10+72(+82)
Juicer Football Body Block/Tackle: Knocks one's opponent to the ground (90% chance if target is smaller than attacker, 60% if the same weight, 50% if target is up to 50% larger, 20% if 100% larger, no chance if target is over 100% larger).
Immunities and Damage Reduction
Immune to:
• Cold
• Radiation
• Suffocation (can breathe without air)
• Depressurization
• Ocean depths/pressure (unlimited)
• Vampire bite/can't be turned undead
• Blindness and Darkness (except in smoke/sandstorm/fog that fouls Radar power)
• Fatigue (Never tires)
• Small bits of flying debris

Reduced Damage From:
• Magic Cold - Half Damage
• Heat/Fire - Half Damage
• Poison/Toxins/Drugs - Duration, penalties and symptoms are 1/3 normal
Enhanced Sight Effects
• Radar 400'
• See the invisible
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion

Postby John Altfeld » Thu May 24, 2018 8:18 pm

PU1 Major Powers Revisions Repost

As with above, here's an updated/modified PU1 Major Powers revisions repost in the wake of the Great Knockdown Attack Post Removal.

APS Light
Problem: Laser Flight is super-confusing. It has a range, a maximum altitude, and a speed.
Solution: Remove the maximum altitude, clarify that a character can fly in 1 mile increments at maximum speed up to their maximum range per action. This type of flight isn’t effective for short-range, use the slower speed that is available even in human form.

APS Vapor/Fog
Problem: Takes 5% damage from explosions and strong winds, inconsistent with other aggregate/liquid/gas APS forms.
Solution: Takes no damage from explosions and strong winds. Other aspects of the partial intangibility subpower remain the same.

Dimensional Room
Problem: How big does this flat, vertical surface need to be? How flat? How vertical? Why the limitation of even requiring a surface?
Solution: EITHER 1. Remove the requirement that it be a flat, vertical surface (so that it could, for example, be put on the ground), 2. Make it ‘any vertical surface big enough to hold the door (so you can do it on, say, a tree), OR 3. Make it so the door always appear vertically, but can be opened without a physical surface.

Energy Doppelganger
Problem: Energy Travel sub-power has a maximum distance of 1 mile per level of experience at a speed of 600 MPH. Energy Doppelganger has a maximum distance from the creator of 3 miles. Why does the travel effect have both a maximum distance and a speed, is it meant to be 1 mile per action at 600 MPH? It’s a similar problem to APS Light Flight.
Solution: Remove the maximum distance from this subpower – the doppelganger is already limited in how far it can get from its creator.

Friction Control
Problem: This is incredibly underwhelming as a Major Power. It provides marginal bonuses/penalties to speed and projectile weapon range until level 8 or so, at which point it’s still not very good.
Solution: It’s a Minor Power. Alternatively, I can come up with some different bonuses, but that would be a whole-cloth rewrite.

Matter Expulsion Overarching Problems
Encase Problem: This power needs some kind of defense against the encase subpower, otherwise it's an insta-kill.
Encase Solution: EITHER require it to be by touch, so allows a parry, OR keep the range as-is and allow a dodge, since the attacker is actually spewing out matter. [/i]

Matter Expulsion: Crystal
Encase Issues Discussed Above.

Matter Expulsion: Metal
Encase Issue Discussed Above.

Matter Expulsion: Stone
Encase Issues Discussed Above.

Re-Channel and Expel Energy
Problem: The limitation about not shooting yourself is dumb, inconsistent, and invites other abuse. Even as written, the power would require you to spend two actions to shoot yourself and then rechannel the attack, meaning it’s not a crazy-high amount of damage. And what if your buddy shoots you instead? That’s kosher as written, but you can’t do it yourself? Come on.
Solution: Remove the limitation about not being able to shoot yourself.

Reconstruction
Problem: As written, this power is barely equivalent to just knowing how to fix machines yourself. Yes, it’s faster, but how often are you going to need to quickly repair a bicycle, and then the machine falls apart as soon as you walk away, meaning you have to keep fixing it. On top of that, they say you can’t fix ALIEN machines, which further shoots the power in the foot and brings up the whole “What counts as alien” debate in terms of non-humans and other-dimensional humans, etc.
Solution: Remove the limitation about the power not working on alien machines OR it’s a Minor Power, but I think the first suggestion is better.

Rocket Fists
Problem: Minor issue, it’s missing the explanation of “See Like a Hawk.”
Solution: Extraordinary vision ten times greater than a normal human’s which means a two-foot object can be seen with perfect clarity two miles away.

Spiral/Vortex
Whirlpool Problem: Same issue as with the one we fixed under Control Elemental Force Water.
Whirlpool Solution: Characters with enhanced strength, increased swimming speed, the ability to walk on water, or similar powers have a chance to escape the whirlpool. Extraordinary/Augmented Strength characters and those with increased swimming speeds have a 33% chance per melee round of escaping, those with Superhuman/Robotic Strength or the ability to walk on water have a 66% chance per melee round of escaping, in both cases roll once per round. Those with Supernatural Strength will escape the whirlpool after one melee round.
Tornado Problem: Ignores the possibility for increased weight/mass of a target.
Tornado Solution: Targets weighing more than 1,000 pounds are immune to being picked up by the Tornado subpower. (OR 5,000 pounds if you think 1,000 pounds is too little)

Weapon Energy Extensions
Problem: This power is so weak, even KS has a note in the description trying to explain why it’s a Major power. It’s not – there are no rules for reach, and it doesn’t matter how many weapons you can create, you can only ever use two at a time under the core rules.
Solution: It’s a Minor power.
Definitely Not a God. Yet.
P.P.E.: 16/16
H.P./M.D.C.: 90/90
Pebble M.D.C.: 300/300
Growth M.D.C.: +15/+150/+525/+1,290/15/150/510/1,290

Important Combat Stats
Number of Attacks: 9
Initiative Bonus: +12
Strike Bonus: +8 (+8/+8/+10/+10)
Parry Bonus: +12(+12/+12/+14/+14) +2 with sword/staff
Dodge Bonus: +17 (+17/+17/+13/+13)
Auto-Dodge Bonus: +5 (+5/+5/+1/+1)
Bonus to Disarm: +3
Supernatural Strength Punch Damage: 3d6(5d6)+12/5d6(6d6)+12/1d6x10+22(+32)/1d6x10+72(+82)
Juicer Football Body Block/Tackle: Knocks one's opponent to the ground (90% chance if target is smaller than attacker, 60% if the same weight, 50% if target is up to 50% larger, 20% if 100% larger, no chance if target is over 100% larger).
Immunities and Damage Reduction
Immune to:
• Cold
• Radiation
• Suffocation (can breathe without air)
• Depressurization
• Ocean depths/pressure (unlimited)
• Vampire bite/can't be turned undead
• Blindness and Darkness (except in smoke/sandstorm/fog that fouls Radar power)
• Fatigue (Never tires)
• Small bits of flying debris

Reduced Damage From:
• Magic Cold - Half Damage
• Heat/Fire - Half Damage
• Poison/Toxins/Drugs - Duration, penalties and symptoms are 1/3 normal
Enhanced Sight Effects
• Radar 400'
• See the invisible
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Augur » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 am

I'm foregoing further work on the HU2 Powers Revisions until there's a substantive response from Blackhaunt as HU2: CS and HU2: G are the primary focus of these rules clarifications and revisions.

Finalized changes
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Ruslan » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 pm

Orbital Spheres (PU3, Major) should really be a Minor power.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Dark Lord » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:50 am

Mimic

Problem: Lots of characters use EP to circumvent the normal limits on the number of powers available- super abilities, psi-powers, and natural spellcasting as well as attributes, PPE/ISP, etc. Currently, mimics can mimic all of these abilities at no EP cost to themselves, both distorting the value of EP purchases and providing the player in question with unearned EP benefits. This substantially increases the utility of mimic as a super power selection, with no added downside, to the point where there is a serious imbalance concern that needs to be addressed. Or countered through widespread mimicry on the part of opponents. :twisted:

An additional, albeit minor, problem is the lack of consistency in the range of the power in the rules as written- both 100 and 60 feet are mentioned in the text.

Separating out EP-purchased and naturally acquired abilities and bonuses is an imperfect and unduly burdensome solution. After consultation with Augur and Blackhaunt, I've determined that a minor rebalance of this super ability is the simplest resolution to both of these problems. The proposed change is not intended to cripple mimic as a power, but does represent a significant nerf to compensate for the wider range of abilities available to mimics. This will be particularly apparent at lower levels, as one of the overarching goals here is to make it so that a first-level character can't just come in and mimic the full abilities of a high-level, heavily EP-decorated character.

Solution: The mimic power now operates as follows.
Range: 5 feet per level.
Duration: 1 minute per level (possibly 30 seconds per level).
Added notes: Mimicked abilities function as if they were the mimic's level, not the target (may remove this).

These changes are not final- I would like to invite commentary from the community in this thread, along with a rationale. I know these changes are significant, but I believe they're fair in light of the above problem. I'll give this about two weeks then add a final version to the house rules.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Azdrin » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:41 am

From what I can tell mimic is an extremely situational major power already. If this is the only major power someone has they effectively have none against a wide range of beings, to include mech suits, bionics and magic. I’m not sure that I feel I completely agree that temporarily having a power for a short span of time equates out to the use of an EP for a permanent power boost, as far as my limited knowledge of the way EP works. It’s true that the mimic gets a massive power boost in certain situations but it’s also true, as is, that the mimic is helpless in many other circumstances. Nerfing it to this level I feel would make it a power no one would choose unless they already had a range of other powers to back it up or buy it with EP at level 10 or above. (Again, I’m making assumptions about EP usage in that if I was a level 10 character and I bought a power with EP it would be a level 10 power, not level 1. If that’s not the case then the last part of the statement is invalid). To clarify, I’m not entirely opposed to the changes I just feel there needs to be a devils advocate opinion about it
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Aegis of No Retreat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:23 am

As the player behind the character in question, I wholeheartedly agree that mimic can be unbalancing. Back in the HU2G game when he was originally created, I rolled so awful on stats that there wasn't a single one that got any exploding dice. At the time, original Zoe (Nicole, Lloyd's wife) had staked 15 of her EP on helping Daisuke not be a gimp (allowing me to play a tier 1 Arismal). I then proceeded to roll fairly awful for other super-powers too. So was left with my one-choice major superpower. Among powerhouses such as those in the 1st SOG, I scoured the various powers to eventually settle on Mimic to try to even things up.

The thing about mimic is that if your other super-powers are good/useful/desirable, a player would not necessarily choose to forfeit those temporarily in order to mimic another's. But since the character had such a low baseline, it made sense.

Prior to the conversion to Rifts, I brought this issue up with H4H GM, trying to make sure he was okay with the mimic superpower... Because I do consider it to be unbalancing. If a GM conjures up a serious baddie that is not supernatural in nature, a single mimic will allow the character to adopt those powers (and also to instantly get a sense of what the powers are). Additionally, if re-balancing needs to be considered, one must also factor in the possibility that the mimic can copy someone with consumable energy with little consequence.

Example:
Mimic copies a psychic. Copied, the mimic takes advantage of no consequences of burning through all the ISP (TK: Super, 1000 lbs!) before releasing the mimic, then copying another psychic or mystic and repeating the process. Of course the psychic effect will fade the moment the mimic releases the mimic, but damage could have already been done. There are a tremendous number of different ways I personally can think of utilizing mimic in interesting ways. And they are unbalancing.

In the HU2G game, Daisuke used mimic twice (if I recall). Once to copy a lowly tech (and he felt the decrease in power to himself... likely lower stats) and a second time to mimic a psychic spook, confirming what abilities they had but since the fight was essentially over, not particularly useful.

So all this to say that if the proposal was implemented as suggested, I personally would not have a problem with it. But the reason I wouldn't have a problem is because I have already spent EP to rectify the Achilles Heel (even before nerfing), which I saw to be the required range. Without some other teleport-like ability, Mimic will be very diminished and still highly situational if any other player has the misfortune to roll it. And I believe will not be actively chosen.

To be honest, the way I envisioned the character playing out was: the more EP I spend on improving my superbeing, the less I was planning on using mimic.

I was not aware that the existence of Daisuke was somehow making other people feel like their characters were somehow diminished.

I have not begun playing the character yet and if there is widespread resistance to his existence, I can shelve him.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Dark Lord » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:29 am

This isn't a reaction to an individual PC. This is simply my effort to correct a systemic problem we have with EP.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Aegis of No Retreat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:38 am

Ah, okay. What is the systemic problem with EP? That there is price creep? Or that people what to feel that their EP is well-spent?
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Dark Lord » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:40 am

Mimic as an in-game ability scales up in power with other players' EP expenditures without a corresponding cost to balance it out.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Aegis of No Retreat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:55 am

The mimic power is temporary. And the innate cost built into the power is that all other superpowers the mimic super being has is gone during the mimic. When translated to our current EP system, the mimic super being's EP expenditure on other super abilities aside from mimic and physical stats is relatively less useful because there will be times when they will not be able to use them (when they are mimicking).

Example:
Superbeing with mimic has natural PS of 31, PP of 24, PE of 18 and SDC of 320. But mimics another, perhaps a psychic spook, dropping their stats to meet the mimicked individual (maybe PS of 16, PP of 12, PE of 10 and SDC of 50, but temporarily gains all psionic abilities).

This is also on the pretense that somehow the person that spent the EP is in competition with the mimic superbeing. Rather than working together for some collective goal.

So the underlying issue is that people feel that since they spent EP on a power, they should have exclusivity to that power? <Trying to figure out the "systemic" problem.>
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Brute » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:54 am

I don't like the underlying concept that the person with power X is being punished by having their power nerfed because someone else made an EP purchase.

This in particular:
Range: 5 feet per level.


...is egregious. Even at 10th level, the range is still half that of the book's range. At 3rd level, you have to stay within 15' of the person you're mimicking.

This:
Duration: 1 minute per level (possibly 30 seconds per level).

Adds a duration on top of a range limitation, so even if you stay in range, once it runs out you have to sacrifice an APM to re-up the mimicry.

And this is all, I remind you, because someone else decided to buy a power with EP.

I don't agree with any of this. One player's redemption of a reward should not cause another player's character to suffer.

I'm not sure I even agree that the use of Mimicry is inherently overpowering, unless we're admitting that the use of EP is inherently overpowering. Because at best, you're a copy of an existing character. It's only OP if the original character you're copying is OP.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Sentinel » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:52 pm

I am in agreement with Brute in that the "nerf" proposed is based on the premise of punishing the user of the ability for someone else's possible potential. Also, the use of "circumvent" in the proposal has a hostile connotation towards the use of EP. EP is not a means to skirt around rules, it is a reward tp players so they can improve/enhance their characters/account.

Furthermore, since it copies the target's weaknesses as well as its strengths, I think it is really on the GM to "game" that. If the target is an opponent, they would know their own limits best and capitalize on them. It also overrides the hero's own powers with the mimic'd powers so it is IMO a one-trick poney power.

Otherwise as far as the "unlimited" ISP. Superpowers are unlimited use in most cases. I think if a person mimics another and blows the wade on something that's their choice to use it in that way.

As for the range, it seems to be a typo and looks to be 60ft radius, but 100 feet would still be reasonable. 100 feet would still be incredibly short in combat and plants the user in a relatively small place. A duration of 1 minute per level doesn't seem necessary either as the base is 2D4 minutes until back in range. Though, it actually may be welcome to a player to have 1 min/level since upon reaching higher levels the duration would be more consistent rather than random.

As it is I cannot see a good enough argument to change the power at all other than make it 100ft or 60ft. to correct a typo. I'd vote to make it 100ft to be a little more forgiving of such a short-range and leave the duration as is.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Dark Lord » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:02 am

I'm open to the possibility that my initial proposed limits were too draconian. BH has already recommended that my level restriction be done away with, so consider that gone. But I don't think you guys are being fair with your arguments that I'm trying to punish players, or that the power doesn't need to be changed at all.

Take an example. Players A, B, and C all play super-powered PCs. Players A and B spend EP on the same major power. Players B and C play in the same group, and Player C has mimic. Effectively, Player B has gotten a two-for-one deal on his purchase, with two players having access to the new super power for the price of one. Currently, there is nothing to stop Players B and C from pooling their EP, buying a bunch of powers for Player B, and having both PCs access them in-game.

Take another example. Player X is making a super-powered PC with mimic for Rifts. They join a group with one other mutant and several minor psychics. Normally, this would leave few attractive options for the mimic, but many of the psychics have spent EP to expand their arsenals far beyond what would normally be available (to say nothing of any natural spellcasters doing the same). This artificially expands the options normally available to the mimic- which is fine, except that as several people here have pointed out, it is the situationality of the mimic power that is one of its primary limitations. With a greater number of very attractive options available to the mimic, that limitation is greatly reduced.

This isn't about penalizing anyone. This is about maintaining balance so that mimic isn't wildly overpowered relative to other major abilities. If you guys want to keep arguing that premise, fine- address the above examples. Otherwise, make some constructive suggestions to address this issue that you don't feel are unfairly punitive.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Dime Store Magic » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:23 am

I am not for limiting the power, but I see the issues that DL is bringing up.

How about these solutions:

1. The power affects enemies only, it can't be used on Allies

or

2. Ban the power as unbalanced in an environment because of EP. We have other powers that seem much less troublesome that have been banned already. If a character already has the power, let the player choose a different major power.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Brute » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:35 pm

This is not a mimic problem. It is an EP problem.

Therefore: powers, skills, psionics and spells purchased via EP may not be copied, duplicated, or mimicked by any power, spell or ability that typically allows such.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Aegis of No Retreat » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:23 am

Given the choice between DSM's suggestions (only affecting enemies or ban the power), I would advocate for banning the power (since the presence of EP makes it too arduous to arbitrate).

Mimicking an ally's power is among the "situationally powerful" instances. And removal of such would diminish a significant portion of its potential use.

Better to ban the power (like others have been banned) and let the players re-select. At this moment in time I believe it only affects Daisuke (H4H) and Maverick (HU:CS WIP character).
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Azdrin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:40 am

Even with the given examples of its potential OP-ness I’m sure we all can come up with a situation that is equally crappy for the mimic and then be rebutted for a situation where it’s way too OP. I would argue that ANY power in the right circumstance is OP so posing restrictions on a power based on its “worst/best case scenario” seems kind of odd to me. Mimic isn’t one of those powers that , due to EP usage, it makes the character god like all the time, it still has massive drawbacks. I have opted out of using mimic until this is all settled though so don’t feel pressured to make a quick decision on my part
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Brute » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:30 am

Dark Lord wrote:This isn't about penalizing anyone. This is about maintaining balance so that mimic isn't wildly overpowered relative to other major abilities. If you guys want to keep arguing that premise, fine- address the above examples. Otherwise, make some constructive suggestions to address this issue that you don't feel are unfairly punitive.


I'm not trying to imply that the intention is to penalize, merely that it's the effect.

You noted a situation (mimic + EP) that could be overpowered.

Your solution is to limit mimic in ALL situations, whether or not EP is in play.

That's inherently punitive.

You cited examples - not from play, but from your imagination - of ways it could be abused to support reducing it's efficacy across the board.
And now DSM is in here suggesting banning the mimic power outright - again, over the potential it could be abused.

It's getting out of hand y'all.

Again, I've offered an EP centered solution, in my post above, that I would like to have seriously considered.
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Normal Form
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Monstrous Form
AR: 13
HP: 40/40
SDC: 846/846

Motion detector, 20’ radius range
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Omega Suit
A.R.: 17
SDC: 68/250
Features:
1) Hyper-mimetic alloy fibers change size and molecular composition to fit wearer regardless of APS powers, shape or size changes.
2) Built-in short range encrypted radio transceiver (Omega freq only).
3) Built-in RFID transponder for C.S.P.D. verifies wearer is a Centurion to all C.S.P.D. and their precise GPS location within 20'

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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Azdrin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:51 am

I honestly tend to agree with Brute on that front. If the only issue is other players EP usage then I’d second that suggestion of taking mimicking EP usage out of play all together, or maybe create a power specific EP usage where the mimic can buy into using others EP powers as well.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Sentinel » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:57 am

Interesting solution. They can pay EP equal to a major or minor random roll for each other EPd power they could copy. That would allow them to use it freely but pay the dues. If they are short then GM random picks which ones are copied that are available.
Since it overrides current powers as well, any other EPd powers go towards the inherit cost listed above.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby The Bos » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:50 am

My two cents' worth as a 'gut reaction' and who hasn't read the entire thread...

I'm for the most part a "let sleeping dogs lie" person, so I try not to go around looking for solutions to problems that may or may not exist. So I'm not a huge proponent of 'we gotta nerf everything' when it comes to super abilities and whatnot.

Yes, it could be abused under the 'right' conditions. So could just about every other combination of super abilities in the game. I'm honestly not sure that it's worth the effort to do a lot of nerfing here.

On the other hand, I acknowledge that while it hasn't been as prevalent as Rifts power creep has affected HU to a certain degree. And with the advent of purchasing additional powers through EP it's quite possible to get characters with more powers than Kevin & Company ever originally envisioned.

If we must nerf, I'd recommend one of the following:

1.) Mimic can't copy at range; must be touch only and the duration of 2D4 minutes starts after the touch (could be after mimic lets go or from the moment of touch)
2.) Mimic can only copy ONE POWER at a time. No physical attributes. If the power results in a stat increase, then roll the increase for that power as listed (copies aren't as good as the original anyway).

Apologies if these have been suggested already and I've just missed them.

The other option would be just to ban it outright. Either keep it simple or don't keep it at all. We don't have to completely re-write the game.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Aegis of No Retreat » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:31 am

Actually the more I think about it (and move beyond my gut defensive reaction), the more I wish to advocate that Mimic be moved to the ban list.

I believe the focus has been unnecessarily focused on how EP expenditure affects the effectiveness and inherent fairness of the mimic power. And so has drawn passionate responses based on what individuals deem to be fair.

But instead, there should be a holistic evaluation of whether or not the power is broken and what modifications can be made to fix it.

So I'd like to propose the following situations as difficult for a GM to balance (because Mimic is inherently broken):
  • Player M (Mimic) and the rest of their squad: X, Y, Z are all fighting a big baddie. Let's say for the extreme case, the baddie is an Ancient Dragon (who is a creature of magic, not supernatural, so subject to Mimic). Mimic (regardless of what range is ultimately decided) allows for M to Mimic the ancient dragon, adopting its PPE, ISP, MDC, physical stats and other innate abilities (like breathing fire, teleportation etc.). M fights toe-to-toe with the dragon and when the dragon is nearly defeated, either releases mimic or switches mimic to one of their teammates who is more fresh on MDC. This makes what should be an incredibly difficult encounter mundane.
  • Players M (mimic) is with a squad of X, Y, Z (who are all naturally MDC but wear armor). In any encounter, M can mimic whomever is healthiest among either friend or foe. Making his pool of MDC effectively unlimited as long as someone is healthy.
  • Player M (mimic) is with a squad of psychic X (psi-tech), Y (burster), Z (cyberknight). Bouncing between their abilities, M can burn through a built-in limit to psionic power: ISP pool, effectively wiping out an enemy because he can (without consequence) add to the burster's super-fuel flame with a second pool of ISP to multiply the damage. And then mimic the psi-tech or cyberknight once that pool of ISP is expended to perform additional fantastical feats: paralyze a bot, telekinesis a massively heavy object to swing around the battlefield like an oversized cudgel, or even summon a pair of psi-weapons and leap into battle with psionic augmentation. And an unresolved question is: what happens if M then chooses to mimic Y again (assuming Y hasn't burned through his ISP)?

In Rifts, the above examples are fairly commonplace. So are no longer "situationally powerful". Reducing the range would reduce the effectiveness, but would simply be a melee action tax (as it would take more actions to accomplish the same task). It will still ruin carefully designed encounters that are meant to be challenging. And as a result, would diminish the enjoyment of all on the squad who were playing the game.

I value the uniqueness of the characters I try to make. I'm guessing that other players are no different. And so in addition to the examples of how broken the power is, I believe it is also not in the spirit of the enjoyment of all.

This discussion is unique to Mimic. It is the only ability that adopts all the abilities of another. There already is a superpower that takes one: Borrow Power. And in that form, is probably more balanced than Mimic. To balance this superpower, rules would need to be made to address a slew of unbalancing situations to the point of where the power is no longer recognizable. I do not believe DL's intention is to apply a nerf-bat to whatever superpowers are relatively more useful or powerful than others. But this is to address a single superpower that is unbalancing and overpowered.

With Azdrin's withdrawal of a Mimic WIP, this comes from the only player who will be 'nerfed' by this decision.

Please ban Mimic from EU play.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Azdrin » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:33 am

I think maybe were looking too deep into this on both fronts. All the examples above are again ways mimic could be used to OP an encounter. That seems to me to be a GM problem, not a rules nerf/ban problem, especially since all those scenarios could happen in a regular game without any of this communities rules. This power, in my understanding, was based off the X-men Rogues’ powers and that lady was a top tier mutant who stood toe to toe with celestial beings and ‘gods’. It’s a difficult power to truly master due to its limitations of duration but it can be god-like if used right. Got a mimic who is thrashing your bad guys? Have a bad guy who doesn’t need to breathe, has invulnerability and a poison gas attack. Now even if the mimic copies all his powers he’s at a disadvantage unless the mimic naturally doesn’t need to breathe. Can the mimic survive the vacuum of space? There are always ways around a power. If we ban this one on those grounds alone I think we’ll set a president to banning invulnerability and other god-tier powers later down the road.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Dark Lord » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:08 am

Brute wrote:Your solution is to limit mimic in ALL situations, whether or not EP is in play.
That's inherently punitive.
You cited examples - not from play, but from your imagination - of ways it could be abused to support reducing it's efficacy across the board.
And now DSM is in here suggesting banning the mimic power outright - again, over the potential it could be abused.
It's getting out of hand y'all.
Again, I've offered an EP centered solution, in my post above, that I would like to have seriously considered.


1) Is there any game on EU where a mimic could be played, that does not already have a substantial amount of EP in play already?
2) This entire thread is about people imagining ways in which super powers are broken and/or otherwise in need of revision. Is your 'imagination' comment meant to imply that you don't think we should try to anticipate abuses and/or otherwise engage in an effort to revise super powers at all, barring abuse that is already taking place, or do you think someone other than myself should be the final word on this debate?
3) Lee, I'm gonna need you to think through some of the practical difficulties of your proposed solution before I can seriously consider it. Not everyone has labeled which abilities are EP-purchased vs. not. Would this be a site-wide edict? If so, who reviews sheets and makes sure it gets done properly? If not, would the mimic be responsible for creating power blocs corresponding to every other PC they could mimic? Who would review those? How would we handle ISP/PPE/MDC/etc. that have been boosted via EP and added to a total?

I'm generally loath to ban things except as a last resort. However, Aegis makes a pretty good argument (props for intellectual honesty, too), and there's certainly some appeal to just banning it and having done already. I'll make a decision after giving everyone that wants to a final word.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Aegis of No Retreat » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:11 am

My stance remains unchanged. Banning the power as per DSM's recommendation seems appropriate to me.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Blackhaunt » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:09 pm

Hey folks,

Sorry I haven't chimed in yet. I've been unreasonably busy. I'll keep this as short as I can.

Dark Lord wrote:Mimic

Solution: The mimic power now operates as follows.
Range: 5 feet per level.
Duration: 1 minute per level (possibly 30 seconds per level).
Added notes: Mimicked abilities function as if they were the mimic's level, not the target (may remove this).


This minus the added note is one option.

This is another idea I cooked up
Idea 2 wrote:Mimic

Solution: The mimic power now operates as follows.
Range: Touch or 100 foot radius
Duration: 1 minute per level.
Added Note: Mimicked abilities function as if they were the mimic's level, not the target

This allows for characters to hold on to previous powers indefinitely if they are in range of their power source. And they fade away slowly, giving you enough time to land, finish the fight, put the burning plane down, etc. The power level would function at the mimic's level to remove the huge power boost that would come from using other's EPed powers.

I am not for banning powers as I'd like people to have access to as much as possible. We have some amazing players who will work their best to be reasonable with their use of abilities. But there is a potential unbalance that comes with EP powers that shouldn't be ignored. If someone chose Mimic and is uncomfortable with keeping the power, allowing them to rechoose another major is an acceptable option.

Any thoughts about my idea?
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Sentinel » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:50 pm

Blackhaunt wrote:Hey folks,

Sorry I haven't chimed in yet. I've been unreasonably busy. I'll keep this as short as I can.

Dark Lord wrote:Mimic

Solution: The mimic power now operates as follows.
Range: 5 feet per level.
Duration: 1 minute per level (possibly 30 seconds per level).
Added notes: Mimicked abilities function as if they were the mimic's level, not the target (may remove this).


This minus the added note is one option.

This is another idea I cooked up
Idea 2 wrote:Mimic

Solution: The mimic power now operates as follows.
Range: Touch or 100 foot radius
Duration: 1 minute per level.
Added Note: Mimicked abilities function as if they were the mimic's level, not the target

This allows for characters to hold on to previous powers indefinitely if they are in range of their power source. And they fade away slowly, giving you enough time to land, finish the fight, put the burning plane down, etc. The power level would function at the mimic's level to remove the huge power boost that would come from using other's EPed powers.

I am not for banning powers as I'd like people to have access to as much as possible. We have some amazing players who will work their best to be reasonable with their use of abilities. But there is a potential unbalance that comes with EP powers that shouldn't be ignored. If someone chose Mimic and is uncomfortable with keeping the power, allowing them to rechoose another major is an acceptable option.

Any thoughts about my idea?




I concur. It is an acceptable change and allows the power to be weaker or stronger depending oh the player's own level. If you mean for the power to fade only after leaving 100 ft radius then might I suggest noting that in the duration? Edit: Though I think the power already says that doesn't it?
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Dime Store Magic » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:53 pm

Not having a character with the power, the time limit doesn't seem terrible.

From Aegis of No Retreat's (good lord that's a mouthful) example. I think the main issue is the way the power handles SDC/MDC/ISP/PPE.

Perhaps the solution is that the consumption of such carries over as a ratio of the source.

You have 30 hp and 60 sdc.

You mimic a dragon with 8000 mdc and take 2000 md in damage. That's 25% of the total.

You release the dragon's abilities to mimic a brodkil with 250 mdc. You took 25% damage previously, so you now start with 187 mdc.

You take another 50 mdc before reverting to your baseline self.

137/250 = 54% of the total.

Your base form subtracts .54(30+60) = 49. So you have 30 hp, and 11 sdc.

If you go back and mimic the dragon now. You'd have 8000 -.54*8000 = 3680 mdc

The same would be true if you begin damaged and then mimic the dragon.

or

Perhaps the ability to mimic is limited to 1 time per 2 levels (or something similar). Thus requiring more strategic use.
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Re: Super Power Correction Efforts - Discussion & Proposals

Postby Sentinel » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:04 pm

I think a person who mimics a dragon is super tough but doesn’t gain much as he overRIDES (EDITE FROM OVERDOES) his abilities. Some natural abilities maybe but generally really becomes a fun punching bag for the dragon. Not much different than someone with powers of invulnerability and increased SDC/MDC in the thousands.

As for ISP/PPE it’s limited use and situational. Spells aren't copied, just psionic powers are. Supers never run out of juice, psionics does.
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